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Transcript of NTA Conference Call Presentation held on 9/30/96 Employers Engaged in Work-based Education for Youth with DisabilitiesPresented by Steve Lerman, Human Resources
Manager, Giant Foods |
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Peter Joyce: Good afternoon. We are a member of the National Transition Alliance representing business and we were asked to gather a teleconference session around some of the most frequently asked questions of the NTA, in particular, "How do you effectively engage or maintain employer involvement?"
Just real quickly, NAB represents businesses from across the country and our focus is strictly on education and training practices. Our research and technical assistance at NAB is focused at the national, state and local level, and our involvement is basically in the area of academic and industry skills standards, school-to-work, business and education partnerships, and the alignment of the public job training system. And if you're looking for more information, there is more information on the NTA web page and let me also just give you a quick 800 number as an advertisement. It's 1-800-787-2848.
OK, now to the discussion. The two outcomes I've shared with both Steve and James are firstly, to understand the employer perspective on work issues as they relate to students with disabilities, and secondly, to identify notable challenges and strategies to improving employer outreach and involvement. Let me quickly introduce the employers. Steve Lerman is the Regional Employment Center Manager for Giant Foods here in the Washington area. He's responsible for recruiting and hiring qualified candidates. For the past ten years Steve has worked closely with organizations representing individuals with disabilities. James Herold is the Vice President and Manager of Bank of America. He is the manager of the banks' largest Proof Processing Center located in Los Angeles, California. I must say it's been a pleasure preparing for this meeting and having a chance to meet with them. I'd like to open up to Steve and James an opportunity to describe your basic work and how it relates to youth with disabilities. Steve, let's start with you.
Steve Lerman: As Peter just mentioned, I run the employment function for Giant Foods. We're in the Washington, D.C./Baltimore metropolitan area, and expanding into New Jersey, Delaware, Pennsylvania, large local retail food chain of about 173 stores. My encompass for this area is about 40 of those stores in District of Colombia and Montgomery County, Maryland, running the employment office.
When we're looking at retail, we're looking at a lot of part time entry level positions in grocery stores, and so basically what we're looking for is a lot of friendly people who are energetic and ready to go to work. What our function is in reference to individuals with disabilities, as far as students go with transitioning, is working directly with a variety of organizations and school systems in the area. We initially went through the [80's] with hundreds of openings and weren't sure how we were going to fill them, approaching every viable recruiting source we could, looking for people to work. We've found that by building relationships with some of the organizations, we've improved the chances of that student's success in the job market. For instance, I'll meet with any of the Transitional Support Teachers (TST's) or Employer Representatives (ER's) or any organization that represents youth or students with disabilities, whatever the disability may be, to explain what it is that we're looking for, what we need to create a match. We found that the more direct communication that we can have in discussing what our needs are, where our stores are, what hours we're going to need--and these are issues to be dealt with whether these are students with or without disabilities--the better. By discussing all these issues directly with the people who are making the referrals, they can find out more what we need. Then the other part comes in relying upon those organizations to know their students well enough, what their strengths and weaknesses are, and what kind of help or accommodation they may need initially, although sometimes there's no accommodations needed at all. We approach it that way, where they feel they've got a student who's interested, they come to see me, and we set up a personal interview. In my case here, I'm hiring for 40 different stores, so I'm not hiring people to work directly for me. So I need to communicate with our manager through meetings and direct phone calls about what we're doing and what they can expect when this individual gets to the store.
One of the things we've found successful is, if need be, to have a representative from that organization report to work initially with the student, or to assist us with a variety of follow-up. We're professionals and like to think we're experts at selling groceries, but we're not, and don't know everything about making accommodations or specific training, and that's where we can rely upon the help of the organization who is referring the individual or that individual him or herself. That's how we're approaching it here.
Peter Joyce: That's great Steve. James, how about a little background information?
James Herold: Within about a year, I took over a new program assignment in the Proof Center [?]. And what it is is a large check processing, called Back Room Function [?]. Here in Los Angeles we're processing about 2 million checks per night. I found that in the unit, there was a great need of support positions, from photocopying to envelope stuffing to distribution and collection of all the paper that we move throughout the floor each night. There was a pretty poor turnover rate for those kinds of positions, and I inquired with our employment office in Los Angeles to any kind of recruiting source that could hold some people a little bit longer in these positions. They put me in touch with the Bridges from School to Work Program, and that's how I got involved specifically with hiring students with disabilities. The relationship has been wonderful ever since. In the last nine months I've hired six students through that program, and they are all still here, so the turnover is definitely improved, and that was the issue I was looking to solve.
What I found to be most beneficial in dealing with Bridges is that they do a very specific job match. Their representatives came to the tour and interviewed me as far as the jobs here in this department, and then only referred recruitments that really matched the needs that I had. Bridges definitely offers the support that Steve mentioned, but really my approach has been that once I hire them, they become Bank of America employees. We have plenty of support here for anything that we need and I really have no issues, but Bridges is there if I do ever need them. And I happen to know that they have a great support network of their own, even post-hire, that the representatives continue to meet with the students just to review how things are going. They occasionally call and check with me on how things are going, but really I don't need them any longer after I've hired the students.
Addressing some of the barriers, I really don't envy your position as far as--what I think the biggest thing is--trying to change people and their perception in the business-place. There's a joke going on around about me that if aliens landed on this building I would count how fast can they key and when can they start. Because to me it doesn't really matter who they are what they are where they're coming from, so long as they fit and can do the jobs here. So I'm sort of naive as far as thinking it's easy, but I understand that out there in dealing with the Bridges program, like I said that it's not so easy to convert people to that way of thinking. I think what I'm trying to do here at the bank, although we have a strong company-wide diversity initiative and position, is to spread by word of mouth to other managers and operations departments that I know throughout southern and northern California, regarding these programs, and what they offer. It's still not easy to convince people or change their thought process, but I think little by little it may make some difference. My personal opinion is that we want good people to do the right jobs and that's it. I've heard from some colleagues that, "I would hire more disabled students if I knew where to find them," or, "How do I get in touch with them," or, "They just don't apply to my job." I think that the awareness of all the programs that are out there, again a difficult task, but that needs to be out there for employers to know that they can take advantage of.
Peter Joyce: I have a number of follow-up questions, but I think I'll get questions from the audience. Any questions?
Question 1:
Lawrence Dennis (Ohio): One of the things that I would like to have addressed is not only, James, you talk about the diversity in the Bank of America, what about the diversity of disability populations, ranging from the very mild to the more severely involved. What kind of barriers do you see surfacing there as you work with the people you hire? And Steve, as well. That seems to be a problem we struggle with in trying to get such a range of disabled populations involved in the workforce. Any thoughts on that issue.
James Herold: Bank of America has such a wide range of different kinds of jobs that I think that the job matching is where it's key. Just to know what people's strengths are, despite any kind of disability. And of the six employees that I have here, they're varying ranges of disabilities from learning disabilities to physical disabilities. And it's really just a matter that they have the skills to do the job. Of course I'm outlining some pretty basic jobs and I know that as the disabilities get more severe it may narrow the types of jobs that people can do, but within Bank of America, being as large as we are, and as diverse as we are as far as things that we do, I think that there's positions for all ranges of disabilities.
Steve Lerman: We've also found pretty much the same thing with the varying degrees of disabilities. Again the programs, such as the Marriott Foundation's Bridges Program and/or others, can actually do the best by attempting to find out that if there are certain skills that that student has, are there adaptive devices that may be able to be used? At our monthly meetings, for instance an employer advisory board to the Bridges Program, in the last few minutes one of the ER's (Employer Representatives) would discuss what they would term to be a difficult case for them or a student that they're having a hard time finding a placement or even job interview for, for whatever reason. Alot of times with 9, 10 or 11 employers around the table, we were able to make enough suggestions to improve that individual's possibilities.
Question 2:
Lawrence Dennis: Just to follow that up one more step, is more of a systems question. As all of us know the whole school-to-work agenda, we're trying to connect very closely with that, pushing the high performance standard and developing national standards for the work force. How do we bridge with that agenda from an employment perspective and make sure that our individuals that we're working with are also perceived as individuals who can perform at high performance levels, no matter what the job is. I guess we struggle with that day in and day out in Ohio - how we tie those two agendas together.
Steve Lerman: I think initially the real issue goes back to, "How are we convincing the majority of employers to get involved / to participate / to get into the schools?" We've done that from the beginning, by being involved with the school systems, going out and speaking to classes and students, whether it's students with disabilities or not. We found that by creating those relationships and working directly with a number of the places, we're able to communicate back and forth through the Chambers of Commerce, Boards of Education, and by being involved.
Tying the two together really goes back to the issue of convincing the employers. I think the way that that's done is that we address employers and ask them to participate in the organizations who are either training, teaching or representing the student with disabilities. In doing so, employers will be able to understand that these organizations are a viable recruiting source of high quality workers. "I may need alittle more of your time now and go over things with you, I need to learn your job, you need to learn more about our students, and how we can work together." In the long run it's going to be, though somewhat of a cliche, a win-win situation. "I'm going to be a viable recruiting source for you, when I call in you're going to want to take my call." James Herold: I agree with Steve. I think the forums where success stories can be shared and the winning situation can be described to expose other businesses that may not know or have second thoughts are fantastic. I'm involved in the Bridges Business Advisory Council here in Los Angeles also. We pull in other business that are unsure, just don't know, or are expressing alittle interest and they're seeing that things can work, and I think that helps. But again I don't know how they create the forums and really get these people in to hear the message.
Peter Joyce: It's my understanding of Lawrence's two questions that if you have a range of jobs in your work setting, and you also have a range of disabilities among the students, are there ways to help integrate them more effectively in the broader workplace?
Steve Lerman: It goes back to the analysis. With the advent of the AGA [?] , we have done complete task analyses to write thorough job descriptions. That puts alot of the information out there at the beginning. We can also take each and every function of that job and break it down to individual steps. That's where we can approach the training issue as well. This student today may be able to take this position, because we can break the training down since we have the job tasks listed out. We're tying maybe alittle bit of the factor [?] , but in the long run the person's still going to be able to do that job, which can be a step towards another job. I honestly believe once we can get a student in and started with that first success, we've made that first hurdle, there's a whole lot of other opportunities for the student to advance at the various levels once we get through that first step.
Question 3:
Bill Blanson (Florida): My job placement special is in our Exceptional Education Program in Ellis County Schools. This is a question directed at both Giant Foods and Bank of America. With corporate drug screening and testing in the workplace, how does this apply to those students who are still enrolled in the public school systems in California and what is the attitude toward the local districts in terms of their cooperation with this drug testing issue and Corporate America?
Steve Lerman: Drug testing has become, at least here with us and with many other employers, expected. We drug test not everyone we hire at this point, but at certain levels and/or for certain positions. And we make that clear on our employment application. We ask, "Are you willing to submit a urinalysis for drug detection?" It seems like when we first initiated the drug testing a few years ago, there was alot of confusion as to, "Was it legal, can you do this, can you require this?" And we can. It seems like today it's become much less of an issue, where people are expecting it. We're in the schools telling people we speak to that one thing you're going to realize, going out to work today, is you can expect that you're going to be drug tested. And it really hasn't been a major issue for us.
James Herold: I've got to say that I'm not qualified to answer that question. Here at Bank of America we are not, to my knowledge, drug testing any employees upon hiring. There may be some positions that we are, but I would have to refer to our Human Resources department to know what direction we may be heading in the future.
Peter Joyce: I assume that question stems from some concern in Florida in placing students.
Bill Blanson: Correct. In terms of the school systems' interpretation of the drug testing issue at this point in time, our local school districts do not even allow for athletes to be tested for drugs before they participate in extra-curricular activities. I'm aware that a majority of the larger corporations now do require that, and that is something that I use when I discuss these issues with my students. Of community-based programs, the health care industry, for example, when we propose to take students into a community-based setting in a hospital, the drug testing issue is still a very touchy subject as far as our district is concerned. I was wondering how those on this teleconference call around the country are dealing with that same issue in their local districts.
Peter Joyce: I think it's a great question. If you test, it shows the difference in terms of how school approaches things and how business approaches things. And a large number of employers, as you've noticed, do require drug testing. I know that in a number of school-to-work programs--particularly those in which the company is the one who is cutting the check to students, to compensate for their work and their involvement in the work sites--are requiring drug testing. Again it's the whole idea that if we're teaching kids about the workplace, this is a pretty important lesson. There's consequences to your behavior, and in the work setting, particularly with heavy duty equipment and things of that nature, people are requiring it. I'm sure we'll hear more about it as the movement continues to grow. Another question?
Question 4:
Judy (California): I have an assignment to come up with value added investment models on how we work with the employers in the disability field to spread to school-to-career in the state. Some of your information should be real helpful about the success stories, but I'd like to hear from both of you about how you think we might package this information on a state-wide basis to disseminate it to all employers.
Peter Joyce: That's a terrific question. Steve and James, you both mentioned turnover rate. What is your average turnover rate and what does it happen to be with the students involved in your initiatives with students with disabilities?
Steve Lerman: In reference to turnover rate, or the value added investment model, we've found our turnover rates throughout our stores are fairly high, in most of our positions, because we're a rather demanding place to work for: in nature of food retail, being the types of schedules one needs to work, and the demanding positions. We've got a range of turnover rates in some positions running as high as 40-50% within the first six months. What we've found with students that are part of programs that are involved through the school (we've got some that are in Cooperative Work Experiences or CWE classes, and others) but if you look in reference to those who we're aware of, I'm sure we're hiring many individuals with disabilities that we're not even aware of; the disabilities are not obvious, and of course with the current laws, we don't ask. We simply ask, "Are you able to perform the functions of the job?" We find those who are hired into programs [?] to be very similar to our other populations. We don't find that by doing these, we're losing more or gaining more, it's very similar populations to the rest of our [?] populations.
James Herold: I agree with Steve. We've got a vast number of positions in Bank of America, and speaking from where I am in Operations, we have highly productive, very demanding types of positions, and some of our positions are greater than 50% turnover rate within the first six months to a year. But, then again we have unskilled machine operator type positions that the turnover rate is very low, so we have the full range. We have people with varying disabilities, and like what Steve said, we've got people, I don't know what disabilities they have or if they have disabilities doing any and all of these positions. So I can't delineate to which turnover rate applies to which people or anything like that. Judy, I don't know the answer to your question, as far as geting this information out better. I wish I knew.
Steve Lerman: I can add one thing. When we're speaking of students and youth--15, 16, 17, 18 year olds--that population in and of itself can be rather demanding. Talking about a source or referring, I've got either through Bridges or other programs someone who is referring students to me that they know. When that student comes in to see me, that source can tell him or her that he or she needs to put on a white shirt, put on a tie, show up early, complete the application correctly, be polite, smile, be energetic and answer my questions in full sentences. Just that alone, by having that source available to the student, having somebody say, "He's going to ask you right off, 'Can you work Friday nights until 10pm?' Don't balk at that; understand that if you go in here, you're going to have to do that." I've really got another recruiting source out there, and by communicating with these students and letting them know that, they can really put them a step ahead of other 16 through 18 year olds.
Peter Joyce: Judy, that obviously that didn't give you all the answers to your assignment, but did you want to ask a follow-up question?
Question 5:
Judy: I understand that they come in and interview well, but one of you mentioned job matching. Looking at the student's skills and matching them to your particular need, and if you could expand on where that's been successful or how, maybe that would help.
James Herold: The way that job matching worked was I gave the employer representative team a tour of the department with lots of different functions--and we have over 300 employees. So I would walk her through on a task-by-task description basis of everything that was needed to done, and how. Then she took that back to her candidate pool of students and through her knowledge of all the skills that they possess, she knew off the bat who would be good for which jobs. And then she came back to me with, "I've got someone who's great for this, someone who's great for that," and set up interviews for me to meet with them, and really it took all the pressure of the interview off of me because these people were perfect for the job. I didn't have to do any screening out of anybody myself, so that's one major benefit that I enjoy.
Steve Lerman: We've done pretty much the same thing with a number of organizations, in that it's going to help me out a great deal to meet someone from that organization at one of our stores. We'll provide the written job descriptions and task analyses, and a tour of the store--of the 18 or 19 different positions--to take a look at what communication skills or physical skills are required for each of those jobs. It's really alot of work for the teachers or employer representatives to know our jobs, and that's what I think the big thing that they learned. They need to know the student on one side, and his or her strengths and weaknesses and ways of improving the weaknesses. Then they need to know not only our schedules, but our locations, the public transportation schedules to get to and from our stores, and what the jobs require, and I'm only one employer! When I get a phone call from one of the organizations we work with saying, "I have a student who I think would be a good bulk food clerk," I know they've been in, they've seen and know our jobs. You know we're all aware that a personal interview is probably one of the worst ways to actually to select people, but we continue to still do it. Through that interview they can also indicate to me, "Here's what you make think of this person," but if we can build up a trusting relationship in the communication process, I can rely on that person more, give them the benefit of the doubt. "Well I have some concerns, but let's try this and if you need to be on site for the first day or two, then let's do that." And I just communicate all that to our store managers as well.
Therese (with NTA): If I could address Judy's question just so that she knows, and everyone is aware of the efforts that Peter and Ester and the NTA are working on, the joint effort of the Employer School Kit. It's a package that, Judy, we are trying to put together with some information about the schools and their concerns with students in the workplace, and the businesses and their concerns with students in the workplace, and have a package of information that addresses both concerns from both sides with some very concrete strategies for both parties to use back at school and back in the workplace.
Peter Joyce: Judy let me give you my email so we can communicate. It's joycep@nab.com. Also, the School Kit is still evolving in its conceptual stage. It's due to come out at the end of this year. We want it to have value, so we've been having discussions back and forth about some of the work that we've done here at NAB and some of the work that's being done within the disabilities community, and we really want some feedback. That's also one of the purposes of this conversation, is to identify what you're questions are, and I think some great questions have come up. Is there another question out there?
Question 6:
Anonymous (Pennsylvania): Through our school-to-work partnerships, much has been talked about in terms of the job shadowing, mentoring, opportunites to get out into the workplace, and educators making the shift back and forth to the workplace. In this way we can really begin to understand what workplace will be expecting of our students. On the other hand, sometimes these students are just having first time opportunities to move into the workplace, not employed, non-paid. We're getting alot of questions. It seems with the last couple of months, employers are asking about liability, which we've done for years and years, but apparently liability is becoming a big issue here. I'm wondering if that's happening anywhere else, and if anybody is addressing it in any particular way. These would be students who do not have an actual employer-employee relationship.
Peter Joyce: I think it's a good question. It comes up in talking about general populations, and I'm sure that it raises the red flag when it concerns employers when it comes to the disabilities community. Steve and James, do you want to share some insight on that?
Steve Lerman: Our issue here at Giant is other than doing a tour, showing you what it would be like to actually have the performing function of jobs, we opt to hire and pay the student as an individual. There's another issue too that comes up--there's union security issues. If I have someone performing the function of someone else, and therefore he or she is getting less hours, there's another issue there that needs to be addressed. We've shied away from the non-paid issue. We have people doing internships at headquarters, but actually work within our stores, those are mostly college students that we hire and pay as an individual.
James Herold: I'm not qualified to answer for the entire corporation, but I think that Bank of America is the same as Giant, in that of all positions that I know of, the employees are employees. Any internships that I've been aware of are paid. I don't think we have anything as you described in Pennsylvania.
Anonymous: Well sometimes when we're thinking about getting students out to see what the world of work would offer, it's real difficult to expect the transfer of skills that we might think they are ready to use, until they're actually out there and get a sense of whether or not they're adequately prepared. And it sounded like from the partnership here, that alot of the businesses were saying, "We'd like to help you, just let them come and see through experience," but on the other hand they were saying, "Make sure you can come in case something should happen."
Peter Joyce: In many cases, the general rule is, if it is defined as being primarily a work-based learning experience, then the liability generally tends to fall on the schools. If the company is actually hireing the student, then clearly the company takes on that responsibility. Then finally, the other approach is the use of third party brokers who actually cut the checks to students whether they're on the worksite or not. In this case, the intermediaries hold the liability issue in their hands. In fact in the case of intermediary groups, they actually eliminate the problem with Labor. For instance, I know in Tulsa, Oklahoma the city went forward and got a reduced workman's compensation rate, in certain cases, because it was seen as a learning opportunity. Do you have a follow-up question Pennsylvania? Anonymous: I was going in that line of thinking, and realized that when we bunt that back to the districts, the districts are saying, "Oh no, we're not responsible once they leave the school property." So we're in a holding pattern with that. We've been kicking that around across the state, and we've been doing it for a long time, but with school-to-work becoming more prevalent, it seems to be going around and around.
Peter Joyce: There was a letter written by the U.S. Secretary of Labor out of the School-to-Work Office because of this issue. They basically stated the general guidelines to determining liability. So you should talk RO the School-to-Work Office or the Information and Learning Center and try to get a copy of that. They also have a piece on liability, as do we in one of our structural booklets. Call me and we can try and track it down. Next question.
Question 7:
Pam Stenhjem (Minnesota): I have a question regarding some of the things you may face or that you've experienced either within your own companies or when you're talking to other employers about some of the misconceptions they have about working with people with disabilities. I'm just curious about that because I think it would help people who are in the schools trying to work with employers to understand alittle bit better.
Steve Lerman: I'd say one of the biggest issues, and probably the one that we've dealt with the most is either visual or hearing impairments. There seems to be an assumed issue of safety that the people jump on real quick. I've had a number of calls from either management staff or people in stores, or concerned people of how can you take, for instance someone who is deaf, and have that person work a parcel pick-up area, because s/he can't hear a car coming. And when you really look at it, that individual has been crossing the street, riding a bike, doing everything else since they were a child and have learned how to do that. Or issues of how can you have that person work in a warehouse when there is heavy equipment being operated. And if you turn around and look at it, in all those areas, it's required to wear earplugs; you can't hear anything in them anyway, and there are warning lights, and there are other safety features that are built in. And I think the assumed hazard that people look at for hearing impairments and those who are completely deaf, has been one of the big issues that we have recently found that is fairly basic to work your way around. We had one student who was deaf who was working, and somebody needed to change the assignment. He just wore one of those beepers that buzzed, and he would know when that went off to go to the office, and he could read lips real well. But the impressions people have with hearing impairments and those who are completely deaf has probably been one of the biggest ones where we've made the most advancement.
James Herold: Personally I've seen the full range of reaction to people with disabilities, specifically here in my unit. I guess the first one that people think is there's going to be some extraordinary measure of accommodations that need to be made in the work stations. The perceptions range from there to as basic and sad as, "People with disabilities just aren't intelligent." What I've found in talking with my peers is that the manager's fear is that a person with a disability is going to take more of their own time. For example, I would have to spend more time with this person in training or assistance, than I would with a 'regular' employee. And I hear that alot.
Question 8:
Teri Wallace(Minnesota): From your perspective, knowing your own individual businesses, what is your advice to educators and others who are preparing future workers of tomorrow?
Steve Lerman: I'd say from all the school systems and programs that we work with, would be to try and speak with and really find out what it is that the employers in the area who are doing the hiring are looking for. Ours is really fairly basic; while there are good entry level jobs, there's some good opportunities for advancement because of our expansion and the various levels of jobs. But to find out what they need, even their selection for testing. Of course, initially we're looking to place them in a first job, but in order to really make a living, do well, and be able to move up, we need to ask what type of testing they are doing. We're looking at basic math skills, basic reading comprehension when we test for various promotional levels, as far as what they need at the entry levels. It's really to open up that line of communication with the local employers.
James Herold: I definitely agree with Steve. I would add, to benefit the student as well as the employer, although it's a difficult task as Steve says, the importance of developing and helping to maintain the student's self-esteem, because it's going to get bashed if it hasn't already, which most likely it has. And like Steve said, going into that first job is a first step for anyone, and I find that students that have better self-esteem, if not great, fit better and make it through. They all realize once they're here that it wasn't that hard or difficult to do, but I'm sure coming in to the job was a big hurdle for them.
Peter Joyce: Those are great responses. I've really been struck in the course of the conversation that both of you stress the fact that you have labor needs, and that this is one vehicle of meeting that need. And I think that we all talk about them.
I'd like to thank everybody involved. Steve and James you're terrific, you've not heard the last of us. I congratulate both of you in your work and I thank everyone from the field asking questions and participating in this call. And through the Alliance I hope we can engage more employers in this issue. I applaud you and thank you.
National Transition Alliance for Youth with Disabilities (NTA) conference call presentations are sponsored by the NTA and coordinated by the National Transition Network. For a copy of this or other transcripts, contact us at:
URL: http://ici1.umn.edu/ntn/audio/1996/sept.html
Posted October 1996
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